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Bound fingerboard questions
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Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Bound fingerboard questions
I'm thinking about binding the fretboard on my next build. The way I intend to go about it is to slot the fretboard, size the fretboard with the taper, allowing for the thickness of the binding, so that with the binding attached it will be the correct width at the nut and heel.
After that, I assume the next step would be to , install inlays, glue the binding, and radius the fretboard. What I can't figure out is how to figure out how deep my fret slots should be.
When I slot a fretboard I cut the slots just a couple thou deeper than the fret tang. After I radius the fretboard I usually need to go back and re cut the slots to final depth, since radiusing the board reduces the depth at the edges. Once I bind the board there's no going back with a saw to fix that.
The other option I have, and one I may go with, is to cut the slots, radius the board, re cut the slots, and then glue the edge binding. After which I should be able to hit the taller binding with the radius block until it is down level with the board. The only drawback I can find with this method is that I wonder how easy it will be to tape down the binding, since it will be somewhat taller than the radiused edge of the board.
Note that I am using hand tools. No band saw or anything of the sort. Radius is 12".
Also, I will be using abs binding, and using titebond to attach the fretboard to the neck blank(Acetone to attach the binding). I'm wondering how well the binding will adhere to the edges of the neck blank, or if that is going to be a problem. I would appreciate advice or insight, but please don't jump in and tell me wooden binding would be better. I don't plan to use it and it's not what I'm asking about.
Thanks.
Any opinions appreciated.



Edited to change the order of steps to reflect slotting the frets before tapering the fretboard. Thanks, John.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Hi Mike, I just did one and first I'd think you'll want to slot the fret board before you cut the taper, at least for me it's much easier that way. I overcut my slots by quite a bit, but didn't really measure. I glued my banding on and then radiused the fret board and I was mostly happy with how it turned out. I really do need to improve on my fretting though, and need to invest in some depth gauges so I don't have any surprises.

One thing I can recommend is when you go to undercut the tangs on your frets you really want to just cut what you need to to clear the binding. When you hammer them in you're going to want every bit of that tang to grab on when they flatten out. I over bend my frets by a little before I put them in and on a few when I whacked them in the center, the ends popped up and did not want to hold back down, because I cut too much tang off. Also, be careful with your filing after you nip the tang off, a few of mine got over filed too, so that created a little gap that really won't go away.

It's going to take some more practice for me, still need to learn that lesson about not getting too excited to get something done and shooting myself in the foot.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
John, thanks for that.
I'm pretty prepared to make some mistakes, and plan a run through before I actually start for real. I figure a fretboard blank, a bit of binding and some fret wire is cheap enough that I can do at least one run through first. In fact, I've got some off cuts I can use for fretboard wood anyway.

John Sonksen wrote:
Hi Mike, I just did one and first I'd think you'll want to slot the fret board before you cut the taper,.

You are correct. I always slot first. Thanks for reminding me. Trying to get my head around the process I need.
Author:  nickinbruns [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Mind that I've only done a few. I slot and radius first, then taper to size, less the binding, and re-cut the slots. Glue on the binding same height as the crown on the board. Then I rout out for any inlay, and install inlay and dots. THEN, I sand the board again, until the binding and inlays are flush...

I did my last two this way, because I had a 12th fret inlay that I cut flat, and using the bindings as rails to rest the dremel base on, I could cut a flat bottomed cavity, and not follow the radius....does that make sense?
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Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Nick, thanks. That's pretty much my second option, and the one I'm most inclined to go with. Nice to see it worked for you.
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I just cut the slots with depth to spare. Unbound board, they'd be visible and ugly unless you fill them, but bound, the only drawback I can think of is a possible decrease in stiffness of the neck. Depends on whether the slots ever fully bite down on the tang regardless of depth, which I'm not sure whether they do or not. But I guess the binding itself adds a little stiffness back, anyway.
...At least if it's wood beehive
Author:  Josh H [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Hi Mike
I can't comment on how well your abs will stick to the neck blank as I've only used wood binding. Bellow is my method for making a bound board.

I slot with the board square and have only used wood. I then over cut the slots a bit to ensure there is going to be enough depth after I radius the board. Next comes cutting the taper (taking into account the thickness of by binding) and bind it. I glue the fretboard on the uncarved neck blank, carve and finish the neck. I do my radiusing and fretting once the neck is attached to the body. At some point before you fret you need to remember to clean out any glue that made its way into the slots while you were gluing the binding (probably not as much of a concern with abs). Don't use any more glue than necessary and you will save yourself some trouble at this stage.
Author:  Cush [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
You can save a little effort by filling the slots with something non stick before you glue on the ABS. I use .02 fiber strips to fill the slots. To attach the ABS I have always used Weld On 4784 vinyl cement from LMII. No problems so far.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Thanks for all the replies.

DennisK wrote:
...At least if it's wood beehive

Dennis, LOL :lol: There's one in every crowd. ;)
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Cutting the slots twice sounds to me like a way to end up with slots that are wider than they should be. As others have already suggested, just cut them deep enough the first time.

Pat
Author:  ZekeM [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I cut mine deep, then attach binding, then radius. Seems to have worked well on the two I've done so far.

Oh and Mike, use wood binding. It's far superior........ Lol
Author:  emoney [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Buy yourself a pack of rubber bands when you're ready to glue the binding on and it won't matter so much that it's proud of the FB.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Eric, nice to see you over here!
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I like to put fill strips made of plastic can covers in the slots before trimming the board to width. (I only recently found out that you can get that stock from LMII). This ensures that the fill strips go righ tout to the ends of the slots to keep the glue out. I just leave them in until I'm ready to fret, which, for me, is one of the last things I do on a guitar. They keep out all of the crud; not just glue, but sanding dust and so on, and leave you with nice clean slots to put the frets in.

Having made the slots a little too shallow once or twice, I like to cut them deep. It's a real pain to have to deepen them.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I guess what I'm really asking is how do you know how deep to cut the slots? Or do you just go willy-nilly on them and stop short of sawing the fretboard in half? Doesn't seem like a grand idea to me. Everybody's saying cut them once and cut them deep enough, but nobody is saying anything about how to KNOW they are deep enough. And to me, just cutting them deep 3/4 of the way through the board and filling the void under the frets with glue just doesn't appeal to me.
I think Ill go with cut the slots, radius the board, recut and bind. Thanks for all of your help, guys. It is much appreciated.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I'd say cut them deep enough so the tang fits at the edge final thickness after radiusing. I drew a line down the edge of my board at 1/4" height, checked a fret against that as I went and voila.

I did mine by hand but I'd guess this would be pretty easy to check once with a table saw setup and do the whole board the same...
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
In other words, how deep depends on how thick your fingerboard is to start, what the radius will be, how wide your fingerboard will be... Just check your slots before you bind it, and you should be fine.
Author:  Cush [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
You can remove the barbs on a section of fret wire and use it to check for sufficient slot depth.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Cush wrote:
You can remove the barbs on a section of fret wire and use it to check for sufficient slot depth.


That's a great idea, gonna use that next time
Author:  crich [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Most shoot for a 1/4" fretboard height, in the middle (heighest point), you're cutting your fret slots prior to radiusing, so cut and leave 3/32 on the bottom. You'll be good to go. Clinton
Author:  Goodin [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Mike to get a good visual of how deep to cut it helps to draw it out. Figure up the width of your last fret slot. Draw a straight line on a piece of paper the width of this measurement. Center the end of your radius sanding block on the center of the line and draw the radius. Measure the space at the ends of the lines, that's how deep you need to cut, plus .020" or so. 12" radius is alot so the slots will be pretty deep.

Don't forget to clean the glue out of the fret slots before it dries. I use the fret slot cleaner-outter that Stew Mac sells. looks like a crab claw.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Thanks a lot to all of you. Got it sorted.
Goodin, thanks. I had already decided that this was probably the best course of action, but your post spelled it out for me. Sometimes I need that, lol.
Much appreciated.
Will be using acetone w/abs bindings, so not sure how much residue that'll leave, but I'll make sure I check.
Author:  Goodin [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
Are you saying you are planning on using just acetone to glue the plastic binding? That's probably not a good idea, you need some glue in there. I have heard of people mixing acetone with Titebond for this glue up but haven't tried it myself. Try that or Duco cement. I didn't have good luck with the Weld-On cement that Stew Mac sells. I had complete glue joint failure when gluing celluloid binding to fiber purfling, and questionable adhesion to solid wood.

Don't worry about the binding when gluing the fretboard to the neck blank. You will have plenty of wood to wood glue surface. Just get a good glue joint binding to side of fretboard. As usual, test glue joints on scrap first.
Author:  CDKeith [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
This is the approach that I have taken:

- Square up the fretboard before you saw the slots;
- Plane/sand it close to the final thickness (e.g. 0.25");
- Calculate what the thickness of the edges will be after the fretboard is radiused. There is a nice calculator for doing that here:
http://liutaiomottola.com/formulae/sag.htm
For example, if the fretboard is 3" at its widest point, and you sand a 16" radius into it, you will remove 0.07" from the edges. So, if your fretwire has tangs 0.05" tall, your slots have to be at least .07" + .05" = 0.120" deep.
- Saw the slots into the fretboard at least this deep, plus a bit deeper, maybe .01" or .02";
- Taper the fretboard, adjusting for the width of the bindings;
- Place plastic shims in the slots so glue won't squeeze into them during the next step;
- Glue on the bindings;
- Glue fretboard onto neck. (This is optional. You can do it at the very end if desired.)
- Plane/sand the desired radius onto the fretboard;
- Inlay the fretboard, then clean it up again with the radius sanding blocks;
- Inlay side dots;
- Bend fret wire to the desire radius (overbend it slightly, maybe 15" for a 16" fretboard);
- Cut frets to length and use a fret nipper to undercut the portion that hangs over the bindings;
- Install frets. I like to fill the slots with hide or fish glue before pressing the frets in place. This eliminates any air gap between the fret tang and the bottom of the slots.

Cush's idea to check the depth with a section of fretwire with the barbs removed is a good one.

I hope I haven't forgotten anything.
Chris
Author:  Cush [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound fingerboard questions
I have used Weld On 4784 for over 40 instruments. It is very strong but it won't stick to fiber at all. That is why I suggested filling the slots with strips of fiber in an earlier post. It bonds particularly well with ebony so it is a good choice for ABS to ebony. It needs at least 24 hrs. to harden.
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